Small Business Debt

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ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Sat Sep 29, 2007 2:41 pm
Not sure where to start really ! I have all the information about the business and our financial situation, but as is so often the case when you are self employed, you are on your own and its hard to get impartial advice. I can't go to the bank as I have tried that before and got nowhere. I have a few numbers to ring so will be doing that on Monday morning. I know we are not the only ones struggling at the moment as I know quite a few other people with businesses down here and its the same for everyone else - it's been a really bad year. We were doing great up until the end of last Summer - its just been downhill all the way since then. We have done all we can to limit the damage and I knew we would be in this situation as early as April this year which is why I put the business and our house up for sale. Now we haven't got a sale for either I dont have anything else up my sleeve (apart from my arms).
If anyone has been in a similar situation and has any advice or suggestions please let me know ! Thanks for all the support
 
 

Soulgrowth

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Post by Soulgrowth » Sat Sep 29, 2007 6:10 pm
Ellie ... just reading your post briefly so I may be speaking out of turn but we are similar in that we both have (in my case had) businesses which pulled us down ... I think that Andy would also empathise with this. It is my obligigations to the the lease that has come up and haunted me from getting things sorted.

What strikes me is that you seem to be struggling to work it all out yourself. The house and the business is only worth as much as the extent to which it can be sold. Would there be ANY reassurance in handing the whole problem over to the OR ... and let someone else deal with it ... i.e declare bankruptcy? That is very much my stance at the moment ... I am hoping that in my case it wont be necessary, but the reassurance of letting someone else sort it I am sure would be such a weight off your mind ... if you haven't got too much to lose.

You might want the give these folks a call who have been tremendously helpful with some innovative advice, they are also experienced in business rescue ... tell them I sent you :) ... might be worth a free phone call. http://www.bankruptcy.co.uk/index.html#

Good luck, my thoughts are with you.

And I remember now ... it was the VAT man that was the turning point for me.

Debbie

www.babynamings.co.uk

www.soulgrowth.co.uk
Debbie
 
 

ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Sat Sep 29, 2007 7:22 pm
Thanks for your reply ! Yes I think bankruptcy could be an option but I would also have the lease problem to sort out. How long has it taken you so far to sort it all out ? The main thing that concerns me is that we are a very high profile business in a small town, and I have always kept on top of the supplier / wages payments. Hence the VAT arrears. It is only recently I found out that they are the worst for demanding payment and action against businesses. It all seems to hang on whether they will let me trade on and repay them after a sale without building up more arrears. Total arrears are around £15,000 at the moment.
I have a plan for the business for the next 6 months that I believe will work, but I have no way of raising any money to pay off the Vat arrears by October 31st which is when I believe I will be visited again.
I might go back to the bank again as I cant believe they would rather we go bankrupt as they would lose a lot more money than if we stayed open as in total we owe them £140,000. Also the banks must be dealing with other businesses in similar situations to ours so must also have plicies or strategies for dealing with us
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:05 pm
Hi Elle
Do you think that if you were able to pay the VAT off and stay upto date that your business would be a long term viable proposition or do you in your heart of hearts know that it can,t sustain the ongoing costs ?
If you think that it is viable have you thought of a possible remortgage to clear the vat ?
If it is not viable then you always have the option of bankruptcy and this would include the remaining lease obligations.So when,and if,things get too much you always have this option to release you from all the worry.
regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp
Andam Davies
 
 

Soulgrowth

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Post by Soulgrowth » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:27 pm
Hi Ellie

You are in exactly the same position I was at the beginning of the year, pumping more and more money into, what was for me, a bottomless pit. We (my daughters and I)had a gift and card shop which did really well in its first year (2003) but steadily went down hill after that reflecting the general retail trends and, for us, the increase of the internet in supplying goods.

Christmas was always our good period but this year I found myself unable to pay the VAT for the last quarter. I approached my bank who had been brilliant and they refused to loan me any money which I am so glad now that they took such a responsible attitude over. The very nice lady told me off the record that if proprietors are needing a loan to pay VAT then the bank immediately knows that the business is in trouble and so obviously wont take the risk ... it's a different thing loaning money to a business that is thriving and developing than a failing one!

A good friend of mine who has also run his own businesses in the past also made me think when he said that if a business is in te position that the outgoings are exceeding the income then one has a moral obligation to cease trading otherwise one is acquiring goods on credit somewhat fraudulantly.

With regard to your standing I'm am not sure that anyone would necessarily know what your financial situation is, perhaps you could direct any available funds to ensuring that wages are paid ... fulfilling your moral obligations to the local community. The most important thing I found in this situation was to be one step ahead of the situation and to have a strategy. And I think that it shows a responsible and professional approach to dealing with a situation which is likely no reflection on you personally but instead a reflection on the current economic climate ... we were doing fine until Gordon Brown first put interest rates up a couple of years ago ... and It's about time that VAT was applied to goods bought via eBay!

This for me has been going on for the best part of 2yrs, I had at one point got it addressed under an IVA but a big monster called THE LEASE came up and bit me in May this year.

I am currently in a situation whereby I am hoping to make a full and final offer to my creditors including my landlord which will hopefully see him agreeing to a surrender the lease ... if not I will be in a position where i have no debts but will petition for my bankruptcy in order to wipe out the lease.

Hope this helps

Debbie

www.babynamings.co.uk

www.soulgrowth.co.uk
Debbie
 
 

ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:56 pm
Thanks first of all for the great answers ! Especially Soulgrowth as its very hard to find out what other people have gone through - it's such a private drama ! Is your business still open?
I think that our business is certainly a long term viable proposition BUT it would involve some changes to the operating hours and staff levels. It is a bit like an ocean liner - it takes a while to slow down and you don't always feel the effects straight away !
I have got a business plan in place for the next 6 months and I haven't asked the bank for money to pay the VAT bill yet (not going to now either!)
I was wondering whether we could put our VAT arrears into an IVF and carry on trading until the business gets sold. I am currently making sure there is enough money to pay staff and suppliers, rent and bank loans (never missed any payments on these!)
So - debts right now are £10,000 overdraft, £7500 VAT arrears + £12,000 up to September 30th (est - due OCT 31st) AND payroll £3000. If I could take care of these I would be more than OK.
We can't remortgage as it's a lease and a remortgage on the house is 'out of the question' according to the bank even though we have £60,000 equity in the house. Basically we can't borrow any money from anyone and I have tried hard on this one, but as you said I am glad in a way because I don't want to borrow what I can't pay back.
If we went bankrupt it would be for around £190,000, with little chance of repaying most of it. With an IVF or payment plan it would be around £30,000 but with some being paid off each month and eventually a very good chance of paying it back by selling the business as a going concern.
This is what I want to do despite the depressing situation. We paid FAR too much for the business and as I said we had bad advice at the beginning and no money for investment.
What experience do you have of IVFs where VAT/ PAYE arrears are concerned ? Thanks again for all your help & advice!
 
 

ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Sat Sep 29, 2007 9:58 pm
That is supposed to be IVA not IVF by the way as I am sure everyone has realised - what a doughnut !!!!!
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:07 pm
I have lots of experience in this area Ellie, in fact your type of business is what IVA's were first set up to assist. As I have suggested in earlier posts - you must take professional advice as to the options available to you and to confirm the viability of continuing to trade. An insolvency practitioner will treat this completely confidentially, so you do not need to worry about details of your problems being made public.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Sat Sep 29, 2007 10:24 pm
Right Melanie I am going to ring your office on Monday!
Thanks and apologies again for the IVF / IVA mix up - malfunctioning grey matter
 
 

ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:42 pm
*Christmas Update*
I managed to arrange a payment plan with HMRC for £200 a week over the phone. Made the last payment to be received by Dec 15th, did that and the cheque was cashed on the 18th Dec BUT then had a letter to state they were proceeding with distraint against me for the debt as I hadnt given them adequate information - ie an update on the sale. HMRC have now said there is nothing I can do to stop distraint proceedings at all except pay the whole debt of £20,000.
On the upside I have a buyer for the business who wants to complete on Jan 30th...so distraint officer turning up on Jan 4th, sale going through possibly on Jan 30th.
Now I really have no idea what to do ! There is nothing apart from stock for the distraint officer to take away, but they will not accept a delay in their proceedings unless I have a solicitors undertaking to pay them which I can only get on exchange of contracts.
Can anyone tell me if I have the slightest chance of pulling this off? If / when the business is sold all the debts will be paid in full, but if it isnt sold they wont get anything. Would it be worth considering an IVA right now to either delay proceedings or as a plan B if this sale falls through.
Also is it reasonable of them to give til Jan 4th as there is nowhere open to get help or advice from as its bleeding Christmas ! HEY HO this time next yr it will all be over whatever way its turns out to be !
 
 

MelanieGiles

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Post by MelanieGiles » Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:12 pm
I can't see why your solicitor needs to wait until completion to give an undertaking to pay HMRC, and suggest that you double check this before proceeding further. This ought to sort out the problem, and I am please to see that you have a buyer lined up.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

To have me propose an IVA for you, please visit:
http://www.melaniegiles.com/ivaEnquiry.asp

See customer feedback at:
http://www.iva.com/iva_companies/IVA_Advice_Bureau.asp
Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner
 
 

ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Mon Dec 24, 2007 12:22 am
Thanks Melanie - I'm sure you are right as it doesnt make any sense to me for them to not wait - we'll see !
Anyway business - wise its been a dreadful yr. It can only get beter from here - happy new yr to anyone everyone!
 
 

Adam Davies

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Post by Adam Davies » Mon Dec 24, 2007 1:18 pm
Hi
Good luck Ellie,please keep us informed as to how you get on
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson and Website Manager

About me:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

IVA Helpline: 0800 197 4838
http://www.iva.co.uk/iva_helpline.asp
Andam Davies
 
 

Soulgrowth

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Post by Soulgrowth » Wed Dec 26, 2007 11:47 am
Hi Ellie ... great to know that you are finding some solutions even if it is still a roller coaster of a ride for you [:(]

Let's hope that 2008 brings some positive developments.

Debbie

www.familyceremonies.co.uk

www.soulgrowth.co.uk
Debbie
 
 

ellie 553

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Post by ellie 553 » Thu Dec 27, 2007 11:50 am
Thanks for all the kind messages ! I have sent a letter to the debt management dept at HMRC stating our position so hopefully they will hold off the distraint proceedings. If they dont and do turn up at the restaurant there isnt a lot of stock to take away anyway - about £700 worth so I cant see how it would be helpful to them or to us. I have suggested that they continue to accept £800 a month until the house or restaurant is sold which hopefully won't be long.
Hopefully then I will have enough cashflow to keep the place going until the sale goes through.
If they don't accept this and the sale falls through I think my only option will be to close up and declare bankruptcy as I cant run the place without suppliers / employees and there is a limited amount of time left to end our situation. I am planning to take some professional advice as soon as everyone opens up after Christmas, especially as I have never dealt with this kind of situation before. The most awful thing about it is that this time last yr we took the decision to sell the business & nothing has happened in that time. By May nothing had happened so we put our house up for sale at £169950 - it is now December, and the house is reduced to £145,000 and we still havent found a buyer.
So one yr on and still in the same situation - who can predict what will happen in the housing market and in business?
I'm just working out our cashflow situation and takinngs are down by 40% on last yr for the week leading up to Christmas - it seems to be the same story throughout the rest of the town - shops and restaurants are really struggling this yr. At least this time next yr it WILL be sorted out as it cant go on much longer
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