Hi All
we are in a bit of a pickle because my partner had 5 years tax returns outstanding from being self employed. HMRC were included in our proposal as a creditor and our IVA has been in place from last July.
We have been trying for over a year to get our accountant to get these completed but he says we havent given him enough information ref takings, wages, over heads etc - we have given him all we have and i will admit we werent the best at keeping records.
Our problem now is we may be able to make a Full and final offer to complete our IVA but we need to get the outstanding tax included before we can do this.
My main question is - has anyone any esperience of submitting estimated returns to HMRC and having them accepted ? Our accountant seems reluctant to do this for what ever reason - can we do this our selves? What checks do HMRC do to see if your estimate is correct in their eyes?
We really want to get this out of our hair so we can move on.
Any help would be appreciated as usual.
Hi there. Much will depend upon how the Revenue view the missing returns and the amounts involved.
If they have reason to believe any of the returns are materially incorrect they might investigate themselves ( which is probably why your accountant won't put in incomplete records, as his name is on them as certified correct).
Our last 5 years returns have all been accepted as they were sent in, no queries and filed by myself, not an accountant. However, I do have receipts and paperwork to back them up if needed (which you are expected to keep).
Best of luck.
What you can do is contact HMRC yourself (don't expect instant relies), submit whatever figures you can arrive at ..... if in doubt on expenses, err in favour of HMRC, do try to be as accurate as possible with income though. Then pray they are accepted as they are.
My opinions are merely that .. opinions based on experience. Always seek professional advice.
IVA Completed 23rd July 2013 .... C.C. 10th January 2014
Estimates are fine and HMRC may not look into the past too much as it would only change the level of debt. However, I am surprised that the IVA was approved with that number of returns outstanding and unless these have been submitted you could find yourself in breach.
thanks for the replies
Foggy - i understand completely what you are saying and we have most of the details but just not everything. We reckon the a[mount outstanding may be around £10 000 for the 5 year period - this wouldnt make HMRC a major creditor so hopefully wouldnt ettect the IVA as its already been accepted.
Micheal - our IP new this from the start and said it wouldnt be a problem - he included HMRC as a creditor at a figure of £1 and said we could add the rest once we got our returns filed - hopefully this is ok???
I will get in touch with them tomorrow as you have put the wind up me! but thanks for both your answers.
With 5 years tax returns outstanding I'm surprised HMRC haven't issued estimates for the tax due - are they aware your partner was self employed for this period?
I would speak to your accountant and find out exactly what he still requires in order to finalise the returns. Is he aware that you are in an IVA and you need them to get the F&F sorted?
What an interesting methodology - no tax returns submitted for five years and your IP suggests you include the debt as £1! Not sure I follow the logic behind that one - but by doing so I guess it removed them as an influential creditor. How much do you feel you actually now owe, and how much did you feel that you owed at the time the IVA proposals were put forward?
It is occasionally possible to get HMRC to accept estimates, but I am not clear why the actual figures cannot be properly calculated. Are you a cash business, and therefore you would have till rolls to confirm takings, or do you largely deal in electronic payments from customers in which case copy bank statements ought to be easily obtainable from your bank. What other records are actually missing that cannot be replaced with a little digging around or contacting suppliers for copies?
you guys are now really scaring me!!!!!
Melanie - i reckon it could be around £10 000 in total for the 5 years. We were in a cash business
(hospitality) with nearly all staff paid in cash and income mostly cash. It was very seasonal and mostly a weekend trade.We dont have all our bank statements and now cant get them as we have left the bank involved to go into our IVA.The one set of records we do have are our VAT ones - the VAT was paid upto date - could we not work a figure out from them as they were based on our takings etc?
Vince - Yes the accountant is aware we need this for a F&F but still not getting anything. HMRC have been in touch several times and i have explained the situation to them and they (surprisingly) dont seem to be pushing anything ( Our Accountant is also surpised by this!) They know we are in an IVA and we have had a letter from them last week confirming the IVA and a help fact sheet on what we can do ref outstanding returns)
Hyperdrive- i have had no contact from VAS in worthing ( not sure what VAS is?)
Thanks for all your help even though i am now a very worried man that we may have done something very wrong - all at the recommendation of our IP ( Who i do not want to name on here)
The Voluntary Arrangement Service is part of the HMRC based in Worthing.
Our IVA is a Partnership IVA and the VAS automatically got involved when it was approved.
From our point of view it will hopefully make things easier, because our local tax office were investigating our tax returns but now the case has been passed to Worthing. However I believe they have a 6 month backlog of work so we havn`t heard from them yet, but they`re supposed to be more understanding and responsive to people in difficulty than the normal tax office.
It might be worth asking the IP if the VAS can assist in your case.[;)] http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/helpsheets/vas-factsheet.pdf
Hyperdrive - that is who we received our letter from last week -please excuse me for being so stupid not to know who you were referring to!
we got the fact sheet and everyting - ref their backlog we have our IVA since July last year and they only got in touch with us last week.
Maybe i should call them to discuss this my self and see what they would accept? Waht does anyone else think?
Even if you have left your old bank they may still have records of your accounts. If you write to them and ask for a Subject Access Request(SAR) this will give you a complete copy of your account. They may or may not charge for this but if they ask for payment I believe it's about £10 and would be your complete record.
Last edited by morgan105 on Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
Moving forward, it is probably time to get your accounts in order and to make sure that you are properly recording all takings and expenditure into the future. It is not worth getting on the wrong side of HMRC, and your IVA proposal probably undertakes to keep prooper records and to file all returns on time. Let's hope you can get the current blip resolved before turning over than new leaf!
Thanks Melanie - i should have stated before - my partner is no longer self employed - she ceased trading before we went into our IVA so she is now in employment on PAYE.
