Everlengthening IVA - Part 3 The Victim Has Teeth

[chris_]

The problem as always is the time/costs situation - I don't think the IP has set themselves a 'budget' to do things, but has just kept putting things down on the time sheet. It is the time taken to do those things and the types of things they have charged me for that seems to be the problem. - At no point have they questioned their own charges for the 'admin' of my IVA which have clearly been much higher than they should be.

£3,200 for 3 year IVA, ended up being 5 year IVA and therefore costs you would think should be around £5,300 pro rata - costs are currently 16K+ and rising.

That is a hell of a lot of 'extra' work.

To give you another taste of the flavour of my IP's charges, when my proposal went before the creditors the charges were as highlighted as £45 - 90hr, when the first charges were applied a week or so later they were £110 hr! - they could have put there charges up 22% in that time but it rather smells funny don't you think?

[chris_]

It goes on and on.....

In the beginning staff were doing filing and invoices and cheque sorting who were on £45 hr, in the last 18 months these were increasingly done by someone on £125 hr !! - that's a good example why my charges keep going up.

Also, my wife has just spotted in my original paperwork that the court initially rejected my IVA because the supervisor did not supply any hourly rates or estimated time - he only did this afterwards and resubmitted it all to the court - I wonder who paid for that 'extra work'.

The supervisor who was supposedly on 90hr at the beginning, but was actually on 110hr was 4.5 years later on £180hr - that is another prime example of why my charges kept going up.

All this and more will be pointed out to my IP and the ombudsman.

[gimmewine]

I think your IP will rue the day he sent you that inordinately detailed breakdown lol. I think your creditors were correct in asking for an estimate of hours and charges and am surprised the charges have not been queried before.

[freelili]

Hello Chris

I have no idea of financial matters (kind of obvioous as I wouldnt be a member here) But I myself took my local authority to the ombudsman over a disability issue relating to my children. It was a long drawn out process, which took two years, I really didnt have 'proof' as such just a gut feeling we were being treated unfairly and 'evidence' about what I thought needed to be done. The main reason it took so long was due to the complaints proceedure needing to be followed in stages and completed before the ombudsman could be approached. Believe me it was work, however it really isnt down to the 'victim' to prove wrong treatment, a belief is enough along with all supporting paper work. Its down to the ombudsman to investigate, in my case as soon as I sent the stuff off, the local authority action was instant, and the matter was resolved by the time the ombudsman had even had chance to read the letter. I really do not know if the same rules/fear of the ombudsman relates to the IVA/IP industry or the kind of strict regulations (to protect the public) apply. I suspect not as there are so many rip off merchants out there. I dont know how you would feel about going public with it all? It may help to bring out other victims suffering the same treatment and bring shame and force unanswered questions to the company. It may even lead to tighter regulation to the industry which I am sure everybody here would welcome.

I wish you the best of luck with all of this, its work for sure but very worthwhile.

LILY

I believe that angels breathe and love will live on and never leave. I cherish all you gave me everyday.

[tracy.h]

Chris i really do wish you well with this,and am so glad that you are fighting not only for your own rights but to help other people that may have also suffered the same fate as you.
How glad are you that you found this forum or as many others would have just paid up and not questioned it.
Im sure with the determination you show you will find justice.
Goodluck

Tracy

[MelanieGiles]

What suprises me about this case Chris, is that your IP does not seem to be remotely interested in listening to your points - and trust me you have a basket of good ones for the ombudsman or anyone else to have a go at.

In principle there is nothing wrong with a professional charging fees on the basis of time costs - I also use this measure for my bankruptcy and liquidation work. However, yours is a case with a difference, and you do keep finding issues (from the IP's own paperwork) which are incriminating. I do wonder if the IP knows that a member of his staff has sent you those time records? I suspect not.

As I have said earlier, there are always two sides to a dispute, and you are adult enough to recognise this. Also, given Lily's long winded experience with another ombudsman, you must bear in mind that there may not be a quick solution to this issue. Why don't you send a final letter to your IP, cc'd to the ombudsman and his regulatory body, advising that you are prepared to accept 1.5 times his original fee estimate in view of the additional work you recognise he had to carry out with regard to HMRC.

My thoughts are that it is a brave IP who fails to accept this - especially at a time when IP fees are under such public scrutiny. If accepted, then the remaining money you have paid over should cover the amount you are still due to pay. Can you do those sums for me just to check?

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk

[freelili]

Melanie

I just wanted to say, I have re-read my post and I may have come across as having a go at all IP's etc and I want to make it clear that I really didnt mean any offence to you in any way.

One thing that I did forget to mention was the financial cost, obviously to Chris, every letter read and replied to could lead to prolonging his own ordeal, it seems. My own long winded complaint and its subsequent action was a contributing factor to my debt problem

LILY

I believe that angels breathe and love will live on and never leave. I cherish all you gave me everyday.

[tracy.h]

H Lily
Hope you are doing ok,i'm sure your post would not have been taken in any way other than passing on your experience.

Your expert advise and support to all who post on this forum speaks for itself.

Tracy

[Adam Davies]

Chris
As soon as I receive my certificate of completion [full and final settlement was agreed on 9th March] I will be challenging my fees.Like you I was on a time cost basis and my three year IVA has cost about £17,000 in IP fees.
Good luck and I will follow your case with interest.
Have you thought of starting a blog about your case ??
Regards

Andy Davie
IVA.co.uk Spokesperson and site manager
(aka Neverending)

Please check out my blog: http://andydavie.blogs.iva.co.uk

View my profile here:
http://www.iva.co.uk/andy_davie_profile.asp

[MelanieGiles]

Lily

I didn't read it that way at all! I thought it was helfpul to Chris as you have had experience of an ombudsman procedure which was lengthy, and what Chris needs is a fairly quick result as he is worried that his IP might fail his IVA out of spite.

I have no experience of the financial ombudsman's procedures, but I hope they are a bit quicker than your experience. Thank you for sharing that with us - it is sometimes difficult to recount these experiences and you are an absolute trooper as far as this forum is concerned. Keep posting!

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk

[freelili]

Thanks Melanie

I was fairly certain you hadnt but I just wanted to clarify it. I would hate to offend anyone and text doesnt convey the non verbal element of conversation. One more thing my long winded bit in my case was pre-ombudsman and I really do hope that Chris is able to sort it and free himself ASAP

Good luck Chris

LILY

I believe that angels breathe and love will live on and never leave. I cherish all you gave me everyday.

[gimmewine]

My friend also had an instance when she remortgaged to build an extension. She had asked for and been given a settlement figure. She went in to pay the company the day she received it (two days after date of letter) and £1,741 had been added in interest. She did try to negotiate with her lender but they did not want to know. Amazingly, the moment she mentioned referring it to the Ombudsman they found they could, after all refund it as well as interest at base rate for the period they had had the money.

[chris_]

Thank you all for your comments.

Whoever sent me the records I have in front of me has sent me their full WIP file, where they have recorded every entry, what is was for, who it was by and how long it took and how much it cost.

They did not send me a summary or typed up report and as such there is no hiding from this document - even though it is a trawl trying to extract the info as it is all jumbled up.

It is a real eye opener.

Melanie, I like your idea of putting to my IP a proposal for fees based on his original estimate plus extra work costs. I will finish extracting from these records what is actually recorded for the 'extra' work and do something along the lines you suggest.

I certainly do not want and (as Melanie points out) cannot afford a long drawn out battle. However if there is enough evidence of 'challengable' entries that the IP would be liable for, I might just be able to bully them into accepting an offer rather than a fight if they know they are on dodgy ground.

Also Melanie you commented on the fact that my IP does not seem interested in my points - I don't think he appreciates yet what I have unearthed, or that I have had all the help from this forum. I have raised general points and the reply I have received from them just states that the increased costs were down to HMRC and Me. - The evidence of this WIP document rather disputes that.

I would have remained ignorant of everything I have learnt here and from this WIP document, if the IP had not massively increased my fees in late 2005 through to the present time.(when the new supervisor was appointed)- I would have paid up and gone away. It is the fact that I can no longer keep up with the payments that has forced me into challenging their fees.

They could have had a full years worth of extra fees, but they just had to add a couple of grand more and that was the straw that broke the camel's back as they say.

Another couple of tasters for you from this WIP document -

In 2003 I asked for a copy of the IP's invoices up to that point because they had not sent me any - they charged my £72 for doing this and this is recorded as taking 1.2 Hrs - A small stack of computer printed invoices in an envelope - how long would this have taken anyone of you out there ?

There is an entry where a member of staff has queried wether another member of staff has posted a letter to the bank to transfer funds - this query cost me £13.

It goes on and on and on.........

[MelanieGiles]

I just cannot believe that this firm can have spent so much time in recording their own time costs! Yes, we have to maintain honest and efficient time recording, but this is ridiculous and completely over the top. I think your IP is going to be hopping mad when he finds out what you have in your hands. And will probably "hop" straight to a settlement to avoid a costly investigation.

Regards, Melanie Giles, Insolvency Practitioner for over 20 years.

For further details contact me at http://www.melaniegiles.com and view my IVA blog at: http://melaniegiles.blogs.iva.co.uk

[gimmewine]

And you will be out of debt in a hop skip and a jump and deservedly so. Forget teeth, this victim has claws.